Ep. 7 - Talking to Your Child about MLM with Doug Brooks

Links for Robert and Melissa:

Robert’s book: Ponzinomics

Robert’s Website: Pyramid Scheme Alert

Melissa’s Podcast: The Teacher As...Podcast

Transcript:

Melissa Milner 0:00

Welcome to Ponzinomics 101. I'm Melissa Milner. I'm a 30 year veteran teacher and host of The Teacher As... podcast.

Robert FitzPatrick 0:22

And I'm Robert Fitzpatrick, author of the book Ponzinomics, the Untold Story of Multi Level Marketing.

Melissa Milner 0:30

We are co hosting Ponzinomics 101, a monthly educational podcast for anyone who would like to learn more about multi level marketing, and why it should be avoided.

Robert FitzPatrick 0:40

We hope this podcast will be a resource for teachers and parents and provide valuable information that is not currently being taught in our public schools, colleges and universities.

Melissa Milner 0:55

If you are a teacher who has created lessons about MLMs, and you're willing to share your work with other teachers, please go to our website, ponzinomics101.com to contact us. If we get enough lessons from teachers, we may start a Teacher Resources tab on our site to share the great work we are all doing.

Robert FitzPatrick 1:13

The best defense is awareness, be informed think, question everything and keep your mind engaged?

Melissa Milner 1:23

What is the appeal of MLM? And how can we help youth not get involved? How can parents help? How can teachers help?

Robert FitzPatrick 1:31

I would like us also, Melissa or not also, but I would like us to begin at the positive side of it. Before we get into how do you refute it? What do we think is the electrifying appeal? What is it that draws people to MLM in such vast numbers? In which they just in general, don't do due diligence, don't ask the questions about regulations, loss rates, how does it work? Any history behind it or anything? Or even the rap sheet of the owners of some of the characters that are recruiting them? People don't even ask, "What's your industry? What where? Where have you been? What have you done?" What is it that MLM is saying that evokes this kind of unguarded response from people that results in their losing money? I'd be very interested in Doug's thoughts on this is, you know, sort of beyond the legal issue.

Melissa Milner 2:41

Can I add something before Doug? Because I know Doug is way more qualified to answer this, but I can speak for myself that it's normalization, you know, my mom was an Avon lady, you know, we had a Mary Kay party for my 13th birthday. I think the normalization piece is... cannot be ignored. So I just wanted to say that.

Doug Brooks 3:04

Yeah, I think well, I, I totally agree with you there that the industry has been very effective at...Well, simply the use of the term direct selling is part of that normalization process. Because I mean, direct selling is is, is as American as apple pie. I mean, it's, it's simply and it's ancient. It is the way most commerce was done for 1000s of years. And certainly, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with direct selling. It is simply, you know, person to person selling without a fixed retail location. What's wrong with that, you know, Bob and I, from our point of view is this, the the compensation plans of multilevel marketing companies that and that they portray themselves as direct selling, but really they are recruiting operations. But just that just that terminology victory of of getting everybody to call them direct sellers is is a way of sort of inoculating people against you know, being on their guard for potential scams.

Robert FitzPatrick 4:35

I would even add another word, even even more deeper than the direct selling which is a disguise term, as most of us know, I mean, just a moment of scrutiny. The direct selling identity has problems. When was the last time you saw anybody knocking on door selling anything? When was the last time you bought anything that one A, why would you need a direct seller today? So how is it possible that millions of people could be earning a living, selling commodities individually, they don't need to, they're online, they're in stores, and so on. So it doesn't hold water. But there's even a deeper identity that MLM assumed, which is that of a business, that it's actually a business. And, again, going back to our colleague, the late Bruce Craig, Bruce used to use a term that I feel like went right to the core of this he called MLM uneconomic. That is, it violates the premises of a business. The first premise of a business is a voluntary contract, you know, I can't put a gun to your head and say, it's a business transaction. I can't completely deceive you and call it... that's called fraud. The other is called force. That's not a business. And the second aspect of a business is an exchange of value, that there results in some kind of a general generally equitable exchange of value. That's the purpose of business. But if I got your money and promised you an income opportunity that I never delivered, and can't deliver, that's, again, not a business. But and is it as long as it is treated as a business and quote, industry. It takes on an almost sanctified status. I mean, to be against it. And I have myself been accused of this so many times. I've been called anti business, you're anti business. And I would say but MLM is not business. That's not business. It's something disguised as business. So I think that's part of the normalization. Something first of all presented as a business. Well, that is the way the world works mostly is through business. That's a wonderful defense or disguise. Second, as Doug pointed out, the revered, iconic direct seller, the Yankee peddler, you know, who could be against that. So, you have to cut through, cut through those two tremendous disguises to get to the heart of what we're talking about here.

Melissa Milner 7:26

I guess they haven't read Death of a Salesman?

Robert FitzPatrick 7:31

No, or Glengarry Glen Ross either.

Melissa Milner 7:35

Exactly. Yeah. Again, thinking about the youth of our country, and their mom sells essential oils, or their mom is selling Rodan and Fields or, you know, whatever, the MLM. And so they grew up seeing mom do this and have maybe a downline, you know, doing it part time and getting a little bit of money, probably working way more than part time, though. But how do you then explain? Well, your mom does it, but she shouldn't be doing like, I mean, I don't even understand it's very powerful, you know.

Robert FitzPatrick 8:12

But Melissa, I boy,

Doug Brooks 8:13

I don't question Is mom really making?

Robert FitzPatrick 8:18

That's where I was going. I've heard the stories. 1000 times. Oh, my mother was in. Well, why is she in it now? No, she's not. anymore. Yeah. What happened? You're referring, I think the the, the experience you're referring back to is a quite a long distance back when there were such things as Avon ladies.

Melissa Milner 8:43

Right.

Robert FitzPatrick 8:45

Yeah, there was something called Avon ladies.

Melissa Milner 8:48

They made a little bit of income.

Robert FitzPatrick 8:49

Yes. But they didn't... Avon ladies did not recruit Avon ladies.

Melissa Milner 8:54

Right.

Robert FitzPatrick 8:54

So that that is an enormous distinction. That's what MLM constantly alludes to that era, which is not what's occurring right now. So but that's, that's obscuring the, you know, they're referring to an old era and then claiming that that's what's going on today, which of course it is. It's not.

Melissa Milner 9:19

Right.

Doug Brooks 9:22

That sort of leads to you know, one, you know, the way the way I came out that's not actually I think, I think Bob too, was was involved in in traditional distribution companies and I back in the 1980s, before I handled a an MLM case I specialized in franchise work. And, you know, one of the things about franchising and traditional distribution is that if you are a distributor if you are a franchisee, the thing that you want most from your business is exclusivity. You don't want other, if you're a McDonald's operator, you don't want other McDonald's close by you, because they're selling the same product at the same price. If you are, you know, selling, you know, if you are the widget distributor, you want to have a territory, you want to have, you know, the city of Worcester. And so you don't have to worry about other people selling your brand of widgets. And because the only way you could compete would be to lower your prices. So then we when we get to MLM we have this sort of odd situation where people are actually recruiting other distributors, who are going to sell the same product at the same price to the same population. And, from a from a business point of view, it doesn't make sense. The you, you should, you know, if you're actually selling stuff, you want to have as big a market as you can without having other distributors competing with you. And, you know, if you if you are an MLM distributor, and you have a customer that actually wants your essential oils, or your your leggings, or whatever it is that you're selling, and is buying from you on a regular basis, the last thing in the world you would want to do is to turn that person into another distributor. Because once they become a distributor, you're going to lose the profit that you're making on selling them products, and you're gaining a competitor who's going to be selling the same stuff in the same area. So you know, why would you ever do that? Unless there are incentives in the compensation plan that make it at least theoretically possible that you will make more money? Because that person will recruit more people and more people and and the Commission's that you earn will outweigh the the retail sales that you've that you've lost?

Melissa Milner 12:26

Yeah.

Robert FitzPatrick 12:27

So I think another way of saying this to most is in the disguise of direct selling, in the disguise of business. MLM can be made to look appealing. But when you just do a cursory almost examination of what what what kind of business is it, as Doug just described, it's a business that could not operate. You know, it's like, on paper, a pig could be made to look like it could fly. But it can't fly, obviously. So an MLM is a business that says it's based on retailing. But then it proliferates, the retailers and an unlimited fashion with no protection, which is the death knell of retailing. If you have a hardware store, and 10 other stores just like yours open up on the same area, you're out of business, and they will go out of business too. So it doesn't make sense. So what I observed is, this appeal is largely based then on a fantasy, a fictional account in which the the the basic facts, the real facts are simply unknown to people. Most people have never been in business and don't know anything. They're most people are wage earners. I mean, most of us have our lives we we have jobs, or professions that are fairly structured. We're not out there independent business owners. That's that's a fairly rare thing. So MLM has created an amazing fantasy story, that that has gone unchallenged until fairly recently. And this has always been remarkable to me, that it could get away with calling itself retailing and even argued in front of the Federal Trade Commission that it that it is based on retailing. But at the same time, incentivizes rewards richly rewards, the constant increase in the number of retailers per area, which is a complete contradiction of it. So what this is why I thought your original idea about education and bringing the realities of the schemes to schools and teachers, and equipping a teacher with the basic facts, because teachers aren't independent wage earners either. I mean, aren't independent business owners either. So they wouldn't necessarily have the tools for explaining to a student, you know, what you're, what you're enrolling in is a fantasy story, not a business. It's a fiction, called direct selling, it's not even direct selling, and it can't really work and you're going to lose, and almost everybody who's ever been in it has lost. So how do you get through that? I mean, I had to write a whole book to try and explain the whole thing.

Melissa Milner 15:48

Right. And, and it's so political, you know, what teacher could get in trouble? In some district, and probably most districts these days, a teacher could get in trouble for maybe having a curriculum, like it could be... I could see doing critical thinking and consumer, you know, advocacy, like some kind of consumer, what's the word? I can't even think of it. Consumer Education, isn't it, there's a word of it.

Doug Brooks 16:12

Consumer protection?

Melissa Milner 16:13

Thank you like that kind of, you know, in high school doing... you know, doing some research and, you know, if it sounds too good to be too true, it is, and don't take anything at face value, do your research and critical thinking and that kind of a, but if you got directly into teaching about MLMs, I think a teacher could get in trouble.

Robert FitzPatrick 16:36

I agree with that. What about you, Doug, if you if you thought from you think it's possible, say these things in a classroom?

Doug Brooks 16:43

You know, I'm, I'm so far from from the teaching profession that I mean, I certainly I have cousins who are who are teachers. So I know, at least some of the challenges they face. But that's not one. I mean, I'm thinking of the challenges that that some teachers in some states face teaching things like evolution, or climate change, or things that shouldn't be political, but are political.

Melissa Milner 17:14

Treatment of Native Americans, yeah.

Doug Brooks 17:16

Yeah. Or institutional racism, which is, I think, illegal in some states now. Illegal, illegal to teach it, I certainly could imagine, you know, in a community where there are a lot of MLM folks, they, they may well cause problems for, for teachers that that try to promote even just a clear eyed view of this, you know, without saying, you know, the, you don't have to say, you know, they're all a scam. But if you just if you say, you know, ask questions, you mentioned critical thinking, I mean, that, I think, ultimately, that is the, the answer to these things. But it's, it's probably not enough of an answer. Because their... the industry has been so good at responding to potential objections. And, and addressing every every argument that you've heard, me and Bob, make, they've got an answer for and the when, when, you know, Bob talks about talked about the appeal, the sort of the fantasy thing, that I think it's also important to look at the process of recruiting, because the way these things are presented, contributes to to the the success of, of recruiting. Very often the person that recruits you is a relative or a close friend. And so your guard is down because you're not you actually know the person that's, that's recruiting you.

Doug Brooks 19:10

And then there are techniques that have been developed and honed over over the decades. Things like what what the Amway folks used to call the curiosity approach. You don't tell someone that I'm you know, I want you to come to this meeting because I want you to look at this business opportunity called multilevel marketing. No, you want it you you invite them to a meeting about financial freedom, or you invite them to, to a meeting about anything other than what it is. You don't tell them that this is a business. You don't tell him that it's a direct selling or multilevel marketing you certainly don't name mention the name of the company. So you, you you sort of keep people guessing And then you keep them off balance. And then they come to this meeting snd, you know, there's all sorts of really nice people that are really happy to see you and and tell you what a, you know, what a, you know, great opportunity you're going to see here. And it's and what do you know, you know, Mr. Doe is going to be a speaker, and he's just wonderful. And he's like, you know, he's the best of his kind. And so, there's all this hype, and this...

Melissa Milner 20:33

Love bombing.

Doug Brooks 20:33

Yes, love bombing. And, and, you know, the speakers that come up here, each one sort of, is another level higher, and they're all They're really nice people. And they're, they're, they, they're talking about the hard times, they went through, and now they went, they had this opportunity. And now they're, they're, you know, they paid off their mortgage, and they're there, they can vacation wherever they want, whatever it is. So it's this whole process that happens. That, that it's a combination of getting you to lower your guard. And, and then to, instead of thinking about the business, you think about, well, what would financial freedom be like? And what do I really want? What didn't you know, do I want to, you know, send my kids to, to college? Do I want to, you know, save for my retirement, do I want to vacation in special places, anything other than, than the nitty gritty of actually running a direct selling business,

Melissa Milner 21:43

Yeah, and it's also the vulnerable, obviously, are going to very much, you know, join.

Doug Brooks 21:49

Yes.

Melissa Milner 21:50

You know, if they are financially vulnerable, or just in a bad place, you know, in their life, you know, and then they come in and look at all these wonderful people I know, they're telling me this is going to work. Yeah,

Doug Brooks 22:02

Whatever your problem is, we have the answer.

Melissa Milner 22:07

Yep.

Robert FitzPatrick 22:09

Also, we're sort of plumbing, you know, going down a bit deeply into the nature of multi level marketing now. And I think what you just described, Doug is a elements of, well, a sophisticated, proven, tested methodology for luring people into the scheme. And it's a form of grooming, and luring, and so on, attracting seducing people into it. And the methodology, piece by piece is sounds so pleasant, positive, and innocent, in a way, getting together with people that look like you that are, everything's upbeat. They're talking about your dreams, the American dream, talking about real life issues, inflation, and college and tuition and things like this. All of it sounds, which has always caused me to say, if you tried to debunk those pieces, it's almost impossible. You have to go back and look at where is it all leading to, though? What what's, where's the beef? What's what's the end result of this thing. And the end result is a very recognizable definable contract, a proposition put to you finally, for a company in which you will invest money, pay money, and be...and change your status over to an independent contractor, there, there will be some kind of a product and there will be a business model, policies and procedures, legal requirements, all the rest of that. And I think if people can be informed about where this thing is all leading to, you know, if the mouse understood that behind the cheese is this lethal trap that's going to break its neck, it wouldn't be so we're interested in that cheese. But the mouse doesn't know about the trap. It only sees the cheese. And that's kind of why. You know, most of us are when MLMs propositions are presented, and the packaging in which they are presented. It looks like wonderful, free cheese. And so hopefully, a teacher or a parent could be able to say to a young person Yeah, it's all sounds good. Let's look at truth now. Reality facts.

Melissa Milner 24:46

Yeah

Robert FitzPatrick 24:47

You know, that's I... with that said ultimately critical thinking is, is needed. It's not enough though because as you said, the process is so seductive. And so it appears like normal marketing too. I mean, isn't that the way many products are sold, I mean, advertising, some financial products are sold by coming to a seminar, and so on. All of itself looks very familiar. And just, you know, nice, wonderful who could be against coming to a party, come to my house, we're gonna have a little party, and you have no idea what's really in store. So to me that that process is fascinating to see. But it requires for it to make any sense for it to have value, you have to know from the start almost at the end, it's not real. And this is real.

Melissa Milner 25:45

Yeah. And that sort of brings me to this, you know, pie in the sky idea of, and, Doug, you might know, as far as regulations, Is it doable to get a law passed, that makes recruiting people under the age of 18 illegal, because talk about knowing your facts, you know, I mean, an 18 year old kids, you know, unless they have parents who are teaching them this, or a teacher that's, you know, willing to go out on a limb to teach this, they're not going to know, and they're gonna get sucked in, is there a way of passing a law? And if so, how, how would that need to be done? How can we get that done?

Doug Brooks 26:24

I could, I could imagine, for instance, a law that says if you're if you enter into a, a commercial agreement, under the age of 18, you can void it, you can, you can cancel it whenever you want. Something like that, it'd be difficult to to prohibit people from recruiting because there are free speech issues, but I think they're I think you could you could look at it from from a capacity to contract issue. And does does this person have the have the legal capacity to enter into this type of agreement?

Melissa Milner 27:27

Does it change? Does it change? If I said 17 years old?

Doug Brooks 27:30

You know, I really don't know.

Melissa Milner 27:34

Yeah.

Doug Brooks 27:34

I mean, it's, I mean, you know, you mean, I, I had a, a job when I was 16, you know, washing dishes at a local restaurant. You know, there wasn't any question about my ability to to, you know, to enter into a contract to wash dishes and get paid minimum wage, and, you know, that sort of thing. I mean, I think there are laws about child labor and that sort of thing. So, you know, something could be done the next, but then then then the question is, you know, would it actually, you know, can you could you find a legislator who is invested enough in in the in the problem, who actually push something through. So you, I think you first of all, you'd need to have a lot of victims, you'd have to have a lot of, of kids who were signed up in one of these things and lost money and their willing to speak out. I mean, you need a constituency.

Melissa Milner 28:47

Yeah, Cutco alone you'd have enough.

Robert FitzPatrick 28:49

Yeah, actually. I was gonna say, Doug, there is actually, you know, some organized effort for the solicitation of young people in high schools and colleges into magazine and book sales.

Doug Brooks 29:07

Yes.

Robert FitzPatrick 29:08

Schemes. I mean, I've talked to some of the people that were at the head of that. They've tried to warn people, some of these students are grossly misled, that they actually take them out of town, where they they are, you know, completely helpless. They're put into vans, packed into vans, put in dropped in neighborhoods told him to, you know, go knock on doors and so one and the only people really making the money are the ones that recruited them. And they ended up working for nothing, essentially.

Doug Brooks 29:37

Yeah.

Robert FitzPatrick 29:38

But I've never seen I've never seen it, it successfully challenged as because of their age, per se, you know, that it was wrong, even to have solicited them. It's just that, again, they went to the end result and said they solicited them for something in which it was harmful.

Doug Brooks 29:57

I mean, I think you know, I certainly... Bob and I have both seen MLMs that, for instance, they focus on college kids. There was a, you know, there been a number that that that, you know, they just, they, they zeroed in on a marketing pitch about, you know, paying off your loans or you know that you're working part time and they focused on on college kids and college kids are vulnerable. If you're going away, if you're leaving home. And for many kids, it's the first time they've left home. So now they're in a new city where they don't know anyone and and they're, they're lonely and disconnected from from those family ties. And they're vulnerable. They're vulnerable to a number of things, including I mean, cults do a lot of recruiting on college campuses. And there is definitely a some overlap between cultic recruitment techniques and MLM recruitment techniques. So it is certainly at the college level. It's it is a, a documented serious problem. I haven't seen a lot of recruitment of, you know, high school age, kids, but I don't doubt that it happens.

Melissa Milner 31:29

So I guess what you're saying is, it would there would have to be enough cases?

Doug Brooks 31:33

Yeah.

Melissa Milner 31:34

Yeah, like one here and there, you know, it's not necessarily going to get a regulation passed.

Doug Brooks 31:41

Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, you know, politicians respond to numbers. And they, they respond. I mean, you know, one thing, you know, if victims need to speak out, in general, and this is, you know, not just young, young kids, but I mean, victims of any age, need to speak up. That's one of the things that until recently has been missing from from the equation. You know, when I brought my first MLM cases, back in the early 90s, people very often... people just assumed, well, I failed, because I just wasn't good at it. Or, you know, I didn't follow the plan, or, you know, I didn't do the right things.

Robert FitzPatrick 32:34

I'm a loser.

Doug Brooks 32:35

Yeah, they didn't, there wasn't a way of for victims to find each other. And then, but then, once they did, that was a cathartic moment for people. And they realized that, you know, they weren't the only victims. One of the benefits that we have nowadays is on social media. Victims of MLM are speaking out, you do find people who are willing to basically say, I was duped. I was a part of this thing. I actually recruited people into it, and I feel bad about it. And the best thing I can I think I can do to help, you know, really, you know, undo that wrong is to, to speak out and tell my story. And I think, to really to make any change, people need to be willing to speak out. People need to be willing to tell their story. I encourage people, you know, write down, write down your story. It doesn't have to be in legal language. It doesn't have to be beautifully written or hyper technical. But write down your story. How were you recruited? How much money did you spend? How much money did you lose? You know, what were you told before you got into it? What were you told afterwards? You know, just just tell your story, and then submit that to the to the FT... FTC, the FTC has a complaint page, you can you can, you know, once you've written something up, you can it's very easy to submit a complaint. Take that same letter that you wrote, and send it to your representative in Congress and your senator. And then send it to your state attorney general. You know, recycle. It's the same same story but but but but tell the story and stand up and and if enough people do that. I think we ultimately we'll... we'll get somewhere I'd like I said I've said earlier I think the the response by anti MLM folks to the FTC's earnings claim rulemaking was very impressive, and has has attracted attention. And and I hope will will inspire action by the FTC. And I think that's, that's really what has to has to happen.

Melissa Milner 35:20

Yeah

Robert FitzPatrick 35:21

There really has been a change in this, Melissa, I think that's something I want to emphasize to people is, for all the things that Doug said, which are so true, the difficulty of speaking out, because in the case of MLM, if you've been victimized, you've lost money, you were recruited, you spent time, and so on, only to discover that it really is a pyramid recruiting scheme, that the odds of being able to make money are nil. And even if you did, you'd only be doing it somebody else's expense. That realization now leads somebody to Okay, what do I do? Well, if you decide to take action, one of the obstacles you first encounter is maybe the person who recruited you as a friend or family, So you have to sort of repudiate that person, right from the start. And then on top of that, you have to admit you failed in something that is currently portrayed as a legitimate business. So you have to be willing to say, you know, and you sound like just a failed person who is now blaming somebody, you have to overcome that. So there's an embarrassment, shame factor, in addition to the social pressure factor. Up until very recently, you know, many people were very afraid to do that. And those few people, the activists, who were speaking out, really suffered a lot of ridicule, and, and often attack, you know, for, for, for speak, but this has really turned around now. I mean it's just... I think the opening the opportunity is really strong for people to say the truth, and not be ashamed and not be embarrassed. And, and to the turn this to people who've recruited them, and say, "You're the one that ought to be ashamed of what you're involved in, not me for blowing the whistle on this." News media people also are starting from a premise that it's a scam. I hear this, you know, I used to have to defend myself all the time. Now, they kind of call me to help verify what they already know.

Melissa Milner 37:40

That's, that's very positive. That's rvery positive. And, you know, you know, Roberta Blevins, she always says, a system that's set up for you to fail. So you know, feeling like you're a failure shouldn't stop you because you were never supposed to succeed.

Robert FitzPatrick 37:57

That's, that's a hard one for people to get their head around. That the business of MLM is to... is your loss. That's their product.

Melissa Milner 38:07

There has to be losers.

Robert FitzPatrick 38:07

Yeah, it has to be losers, because that's where the money is, is in your loss. You're the producer, when you lose.

Doug Brooks 38:14

You'd be better off... I mean, this is another thing John Taylor said, You'd be better off playing the lottery...going to Las Vegas.

Robert FitzPatrick 38:23

Yeah

Doug Brooks 38:23

At least you know that you're gambling?

Melissa Milner 38:25

Exactly.

Robert FitzPatrick 38:27

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, John, also used to that I know, these numbers can be played around with and I still hear the number, you know, 90%, and so on. Like, there's like it's a foot race, and there may be 10%, we're faster than those other 90. Well, that's normal. You know, I probably couldn't get into the NBA, you know, but that's not what MLM is. It's not a foot race for the for the most competent, or it's it's a trap. It's designed. It's a transfer. So it's not a competition. When you join in, you are not at some level playing field with the big performers.

Melissa Milner 39:09

And it just depends on when you got in, that's all.

Robert FitzPatrick 39:12

Yes, yes.

Melissa Milner 39:15

Yeah. So we've talked about, you know, what are some of the important messages that a parent should teach their child is, you know, think critically, don't believe everything that's being told to you, look it up, you know, do your research. I think the podcast is a really good point that, you know, if a parent wants more information about an MLM that maybe their child is choosing to be in and they're like, Wait, what are they? What are you doing? Oh, it's makeup parties. I mean, certainly, Ponzinomics 101 goes back to the very basics of what is direct selling is direct selling an MLM, and so on, or any of the other, especially stories like you were saying, it's pretty powerful to maybe play a podcast episode for your child, you know about, you know, your teenage child that that really goes through how they were sucked in, what happened while they were in and how they were treated when they tried to get out, I think would be a huge deterrent, just having that... those anecdotal stories,

Robert FitzPatrick 40:21

Yeah. The Ponzinomics 101, the last, the sessions that we've done so far, you know, you could categorize it for a school as kind of a real basic course in in the fundamentals of business and direct selling as a business model. And which is just not taught in school. You know, kids don't learn about checking accounts, even. They don't learn about the basics of business, and sadly, and so they're extremely vulnerable to this. And I've had families tell me that their son or daughter, or usually it's a son, in many cases that I've experienced, comes home, he wants to quit school wants to quit college, for example, and doesn't need it anymore anyway, because he's found this opportunity that he's going to make him very wealthy soon, of course, it's an MLM. When the parents tried to, you know, talk sense to him. The son said, Well, you know, your problem is you don't understand business. So, now they were putting him through school, right? They have provided home and food and so on. But the son has walked into a meeting in which they he is being told that he is learning the secrets of business, the secrets of success. And it because his parents are not wealthy, they are not credible, right?

Melissa Milner 41:57

He's drinking the Kool Aid. He's drinking the Kool Aid.

Robert FitzPatrick 41:59

Yes, this is all Kool Aid, you know. So that's why everybody sort of needs to be equipped with just the basics a lot of parents just they just don't know what to say to that. I mean, you know, what they know is you you work hard, you save money, you invest and that's how you live and here comes their son or daughter saying nah nah, you don't need to do any of that. You just it you can be an influencer, you can be a networker. And and you can achieve all this, you know, it's a new model. It's your in the old model. They don't know how to respond to that. Yeah. So just going back to the basics is the best antidote I don't know of another. Doug, thank you for taking time with us here.

Melissa Milner 42:46

Yeah, this was a big chunk of time.

Doug Brooks 42:48

I enjoy it. And you know, if you want to do if there's more I can add. I'm happy to do that too. Thank you.

Melissa Milner 42:56

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