Ep. 8 - How MLMs Infiltrate Schools: A Story of One Teacher’s Betrayal with Megan Rowton
Links for Robert and Melissa:
Robert’s book: Ponzinomics
Robert’s Website: Pyramid Scheme Alert
Melissa’s Podcast: The Teacher As...Podcast
How to reach Megan:
Transcript:
Melissa Milner 0:15
Welcome to Ponzinomics 101. I'm Melissa Milner. I'm a 30 year veteran teacher and host of The Teacher As...podcast.
Robert FitzPatrick 0:22
And I'm Robert Fitzpatrick, author of the book Ponzinomics, the Untold Story of Multi-level Marketing.
Robert FitzPatrick 0:30
We are co hosting Ponzinomics 101, a monthly educational podcast for anyone who would like to learn more about multi-level marketing, and why it should be avoided.
Robert FitzPatrick 0:40
We hope this podcast will be a resource for teachers and parents and provide valuable information that is not currently being taught in our public schools, colleges and universities.
Melissa Milner 0:55
If you are a teacher who has created lessons about MLMs, and you're willing to share your work with other teachers, please go to our website, ponzinomics101.com to contact us. If we get enough lessons from teachers, we may start a Teacher Resources tab on our site to share the great work we're all doing.
Robert FitzPatrick 1:13
The best defense is awareness. Be informed think, question everything and keep your mind engaged.
Melissa Milner 1:23
Well, welcome Megan Rowton to Ponzinomics 101. We're glad to have you.
Megan Rowton 1:30
Thank you.
Melissa Milner 1:31
Yes. So Megan, was it the life after MLM Facebook page?
Megan Rowton 1:36
I think so.
Melissa Milner 1:37
Yeah. Megan posted something that was very alarming to me. Was it...you were recruited by your... was it your high school teacher?
Megan Rowton 1:46
My high school special special education teacher.
Melissa Milner 1:50
Wow!
Megan Rowton 1:51
Yikes.
Melissa Milner 1:51
Wow. And we have questions about that, but that to me was very alarming. And I contacted... I think I jumped in your DM right away, I was like you need, we need to understand what in the world happened for this to have been even a thought in this teacher's mind. So, Robert and I really we want to hear sort of the story of it. But Robert is going to kind of preface it with the whole position of authority concept.
Robert FitzPatrick 2:29
Well, you know, what we know is two things. One, most people don't know what is really going on when they're recruited. Second, the way people get recruited, is disarming. In most cases. It's not like a used car salesman, or something like that contacting you. It's not even like a solicitation over the phone, which everybody's getting these days, you know, cold calling. It's usually from a friend or a relative or someone you respect. And the respect part, along with the friendship or intimacy or family results in most people sort of dropping their guard. And assuming that the proposition would be in their best interest, and never actually even entertaining the idea that it could be harmful to them, or deceptive. So on the type in which solicitations occur from people in authority, this comes from respect. So in my experience, over the years, I've encountered so many instances of people reporting that they were recruited by managers at work. How do you say no to your manager? Right? That person has power over your promotion, your salary, basically, whether you get laid off or not. People have been recruited in universities by you know, upper level people and so on. People in authority. hospital administrators have done this. I've seen it disrupt whole organizations, because there's no way for people to actually say no, gracefully, and because even by saying No, they've kind of harmed the relationship. Now, so many people don't say no, or they're at a loss of how to say no. Certainly teachers are at the top of that list of people that would normally be respected, viewed as an authority and therefore, have a leverage over anybody. They would solicit even more so maybe than a friend or relative. Because you assume that a teacher professional, has superior knowledge experience. They're there to help you develop you. How could it be that they would be luring you into something like that your experience of being solicited by a teacher is really illustrative of this larger phenomenon of people using their authority as the leverage to recruit somebody. And that's why we thought, how many thousands, millions of people would be in that position. Everybody goes through school, everybody has teachers, everybody does. So if the schools, the institutions, which are funneling everybody through there eventually to high school, and college, trade schools, or whatever, if teachers are recruiting, then you know, it puts everybody at risk, who would be in schools.
Melissa Milner 5:50
So, I think we're gonna jump in Megan, please let us know, like how this even happened.
Megan Rowton 5:55
So, you know, I tell people like all my life I've been like, and I would say doTERRA out of like all multilevel marketing things, it's one of those ones where people you can kind of like, do like the creation projects with it, it's more of like one of the ones where you can like, make your own epsom salts, make your own like shampoo bars, and I've always been like, really like into that just because like, for myself, I'm a homemaker. So a lot of my like, fun creative projects come from like, making at home. And I'd specially like I tell people like, being the person that I was my whole life, I've always wanted to just like, I've always been a very natural using product person. So like the sound of like an essential oil. I feel like that's such a natural sounding term. Because it's for own in that holistic world where like people in the holistic world know what an essential oil is. And I think people now are finally like, figuring like out like what the multilevel marketing oils are, and like what the difference is, but at the time, I was 18 years old, which, in my mind, I'm 26. Now, almost 26 and a half, and I tell people like your your child at 18 years old, and your brain doesn't stop growing until you're 25. So I'm like to pitch a student who's working on their project to graduate. I'm like, to me, I was very alarmed by like that now, but like looking back, I think it was just more me thinking like, this person wants to help me with this, this person wants me to make the best of the best product for myself. Like, how would this person fail me? And now looking back on like, what good ever came out of that? Absolutely nothing?
Robert FitzPatrick 7:37
What do you think the teacher is a him or her by the way?
Megan Rowton 7:42
Her?
Robert FitzPatrick 7:43
What do you think she thought? At the time? Have you considered that? Of what what was the motive? What was their awareness, they... of anybody a teacher ought to know, an 18 year old, you know, is really not in a position to evaluate this wouldn't have the experience they're searching and so on. To put a financial proposition like that in front of you. And then I want to ask a little more about what you learned of the financial proposition, you know, of the whole program. I mean, what how much of it did you learn but what do you think she was doing? Was she trying to help you do you think or taking advantage? Or both?
Megan Rowton 8:35
I feel like now, back I definitely would say taken advantage of like the person in the situation at the time I definitely would have been like this person's trying to help me but like, like I said, What 18 year old like I don't want to say that sound horrible to like any young audience listening. But when you're young you think that you know everything and you give people the benefit of the doubt too much. And I was always that person growing up I was always that person. In my friend group in my dating life, I had to be the people pleaser, the person that made somebody happy. And I think looking back I was totally used as a as a as a horrible as it sounds, I guess you could say, my really like my heart, I guess like aches for this like situation looking back now. Because it was done in a special education setting. So not only are you coming across people who are already young and like I say kind of like, a little bit more like willing to do things at that age because it's age appropriate. You're going towards somebody who thinks and looks at the world as a completely different standpoint. And that's why my mind no you're taking advantage of people like you should not be allowed to do this as a professional ever.
Melissa Milner 9:55
Were you the only one that was recruited by this special ed teacher.
Megan Rowton 10:00
Of course, I was a socially like quiet child. So like I feel like yes, but I'm not sure just because a lot of the kids in there were very quiet very low, especially the kids, I sat around just because I wasn't a super socially like leap of faith person myself at that age.
Melissa Milner 10:16
And how did this teacher even broach the subject with you? Was she...Did she have the essential oils in the room smelling up the room? Did that spark a conversation?
Megan Rowton 10:27
It's actually interesting, because I feel like a lot of essential oil use is through like diffusing or like, try to put this on your body. No, it was more like, hey, put this in your water bottle. And I was just like, okay, and now looking back and what I know of like essential oil safety, I'm like, I would never recommend any of that to anyone with even if it tells you to ingest it on the bottom, like so I really don't like how she came at back. Because of course, you're like, tired midday, and someone's like, Here, put this in your water. It's gonna make it taste good. You're like, oh, nice little like, pick me up. I like feeling and...
Melissa Milner 11:05
Did she ask you if you had allergies? Did she ask you any medical...
Megan Rowton 11:09
No.
Melissa Milner 11:09
As a professional teacher, I just.. I'm horrified.
Megan Rowton 11:14
And it sounds like, I tell people, like it sounds horrible. Because like, I can't imagine doing that did just like a child who like I said is a little bit more on like naive, I guess side. But I'm like, when I like, think about it. I'm like, I wouldn't ever do that to anybody like because then like you don't know allergies. You don't know if somebody would have like an allergic reaction? Like, what if somebody has like an allergic reaction, like not even an allergic reaction, but like a stomach sensitivity I have. I had IBS myself. And like, luckily, I've gotten it under control. But like, you don't know what people's like stomachs will do sometimes. And to put it in someone's water, it just blew my mind. Because it's like I tell people like, especially infant safety when people rub it like on their babies. I'm like, be careful. Doing that unless you're getting told from an aroma therapist, not a multi level marketing like boss, babe, I'm like do not do it.
Robert FitzPatrick 12:07
So two things you've sort of said already. First, which we sort of stepped over a little bit. How in the... what in the world is a teacher talking to any student, any student about business, this is a business, right? You ultimately you sign a contract, you become a contractor for this large corporation called doTERRA. Could be any of them. Here's somebody actually selling, you know, commercially selling this is now worth the money to a student under their care. So that's, that's the first thing. That's so way out of the bounds. The second thing is, it's presented to you as kind of a healthcare product. Right? It's a well being health, but it's health. It's called Health from somebody who has no training, no experience, no certification, no authorization to be advising anybody on selling them a product of health care. Those two things now are absolutely normalized. In multi level marketing, one crossing boundaries of relationship, in this case, teacher students, could be family could be friendship, but teacher student is probably the most powerful one being violated. And the second is that completely inappropriate advice being given, which is absolutely common. Again, remember, everybody who is selling those products goes out and has to sell it as if they have some special knowledge about health and well being, which they don't.
Megan Rowton 13:45
Yes.
Robert FitzPatrick 13:46
Right. The company does not provide that. There's no, that's just assumed.
Megan Rowton 13:51
Yeah. And it's really scary. And I tell people like especially like I said, like when you're mixing, it seemed like certain things with like, oils, and like, you have to be very, very careful. And like, there is a lot of safety. And I feel like that's not talked about ever. And there's certain oils that you can mix with certain oils, and it's fine. But then there's like that line. And it's like I tell people I'm like, please just know what you're getting yourself into. Because these people don't know anything. These people aren't doctors, these people aren't like aromatherapists, like these people... I guess you could say don't have the knowledge behind the product as I'm like, I tell people like I'm a very clean, I guess you could say earthy person myself. And that's why I think I just got so involved with it. And I'm like, there's a lot better things that you can be putting on yourself. And I and people ask about like, the quality and it's like, I tell people I'm like but like, you gotta realize I'm like, if someone's pitching your product, no matter if it's like your teacher I'm like these people don't like you said they don't have the knowledge and I think that's one thing people really just need to consider before joining any sort of like, company is like How can this person train me? Because I don't like I said, I don't work myself, my husband, he works full time, but like his work has training, how are you going to train your people? If there's no training? Are you in a legit company?
Robert FitzPatrick 15:16
Yes, there's no training. Except there's a pitch, there's a pitch to memorize. There's the pitch that is a training on how to pitch. Yes, there is that maybe the story could continue. I'm interested what happens? So...
Melissa Milner 15:31
Yeah, did you ask your parents if you could do it? Or did you just do it and what happened?
Megan Rowton 15:36
You know, it's weird enough. Where I'm from, I don't live where I'm originally from anymore. I came from a decent sized community around 40,000 people to some people, that's a really small community to some people that's like a larger sized area, right. And I went to public school my whole life. I remember when I was a young child, but like, a little bit of that was just like, like, a lot of it was like education, like a lot of my teachers like knew who I was, like I said, the community I'm from. Part of it was private school. So like, when you go to private school, sometimes you see your teachers in churches and perfectly fine. And growing up, I was like, Oh, these are people I can trust. So like this lady, she did go to the same church as my family, weirdly enough, we never knew her at church. But like, when you had four Catholic churches in the area, I can understand when people have like other options. And it was more one of those things like you can hold doTERRA parties, at churches just because like, you know, it is a open area where people use to gather and nothing against that at all. A lot of it was at church. So I'd go to my mom and be like can I go to this, like doTERRA party with so and so. And my mom was weirdly enough, like okay, well if it like that's one part of my brain, but I still can't like think why. But she was I as somebody who doesn't have children themsleves like I know it me and my husband were talking I'm like, I would be very like upset if someone pitched my child was especially at such a young age where I said, like, not even your brain has developed a full capacity. So you're not going to be thinking to full capacity, in my opinion ever by tell people. What like is crazy to me about the whole situation is my family. Like my grandma was a little suspicious, like, you know, only like that top 1% of people will ever make anything. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, because you're a really smart person. But this is reality of it. And like some of my family was like, don't listen to that, like you can do anything you put your mind to. And I'm like, now looking back, I'm like, you're not selling a product, you're selling a recruitment. That's what you're selling. If it was sales commission, that would be a sales job. But like the fact that you're recruiting people, the only way you're going to ever make my money in like those type of companies is through recruitment. Plain and simple. I tell people, right.
Robert FitzPatrick 17:58
Yeah. And you can only recruit somebody, the way you recruit somebody is to tell them, they have to recruit too.
Megan Rowton 18:06
Yes.
Robert FitzPatrick 18:06
You're not just recruiting, your recruiting recruiters?
Megan Rowton 18:10
Yes. I tell people, I'm like, There's no such thing as loving your customers. I truly believe like, eventually you want everyone to have at least one person in your downline, because if that person doesn't, you're not going to make any money off of that person.
Robert FitzPatrick 18:24
So your grandmother got it? Apparently?
Megan Rowton 18:27
Yes, very much so.
Robert FitzPatrick 18:29
But your mother didn't, didn't wasn't aware. And and then the other thing about, I don't wait, there's so many different words for this. But you know, this idea that you can do anything. Never say you can't do something. Never say something's too hard. If you put your effort to it, if you envision it, you can make it anything happen. So that comes into play. And that's so frequently used in multilevel marketing as a strategy. So if if you show the math of it, well, if I have to recruit 50 people in order to become profitable, then doesn't just one in 50 ever make money then? Right? Because if I have to be 50, each of them need 50. So only one in 50 can even begin to make money. So you say that that's the system and then somebody will say, that's just negative thinking. That's just limited thinking.
Melissa Milner 19:32
Toxic positivity.
Robert FitzPatrick 19:34
Toxic positivity. Yeah. So you ran into that, which is of course when you're young, that's when you really want to think that way too.
Megan Rowton 19:42
It sounds like crazy because like, like I said, like I would attend parties on the occasion. She was my first one. And I did I did tell Melissa here about like me, at one point switching over to a whole other team and that was like, that's a whole other like craziness. Pushing like, sales thing to another level, I would say. I definitely can go into detail if you guys would like to hear more on the map.
Robert FitzPatrick 20:08
So you were in one line or one downline and you switch over to a different downline. Is that what you're saying?
Megan Rowton 20:15
Yeah.
Robert FitzPatrick 20:16
How did you do that? Because that's as, you know, that sort of forbidden in multilevel...for good reason.
Megan Rowton 20:22
It is kind of forbidden. And I kind of did it and I met this girl, me and her connected really, really well. Of course, you're going to connect well with these people at first, they're going to be your best friend. At first I tell people, and everything to her was money making and look at what I paid off with doTERRA. Look at what I bought for my family with doTERRA. Very much super money claims of doTERRA. Very much so the life promises of if you want like to work for yourself, or she came to me and it was more like, if you want to be this stay at home, like ranching, stay at home mom, homesteading person, you have to do something to make yourself money while you're young. And I believe that so hard, because she was this person. She had a family, she had kids, she had a husband. And that's when I saw that more as a while you're close to my age and doTERRA did that for you. And it's something that's a sad thing that most people I would say get pulled into. We would have Zoom calls three nights a week, anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half, so very like where's your time freedom, that everyone promises? Because I didn't get any time freedom. I tell people I spent a really large chunk of money and I never really saw that in return.
Robert FitzPatrick 21:45
Well, you would be quite rare if you ever did. So you're in very good company.
Megan Rowton 21:51
Yes.
Robert FitzPatrick 21:52
You know, for not seeing return. Virtually nobody sees return and couldn't based on that model. So your teacher was your first upline? And then why did you move over? Did you have reason to move away from her? Or was it just the attraction of this other person who was closer to your age and so on?
Megan Rowton 22:15
So the second person I would say we just had like a lot more in common so it was basically like you said like that kind of like battle or like I'm attraction like towards people like she had. I guess you can see at one point in my life, I was like, really like, into like the whole van life. I feel like everybody like wants to travel, see the country. And she was doing that. And it's something I was like, wow, if she can do this, I can do this too.
Melissa Milner 22:35
Did any of that have to do with her husband's income?
Megan Rowton 22:38
You know, it sounds stupid, like husband's income. It's like, what are you talking about type thing. Like, it's like, that's another thing I hate when people like I retired this person and it's like, no, you got them to quit their job is what you did like when my husband I thought people I joke with it. I'm like when my husband like, quits his job and like 15 years and we retire. I'm like, I can't really use the word retire. But I'm like, I hate how it's an MLM pitch now, because it's retired is such a luxury word. When I think retired, I think of people like my father who are fully retired, and don't do anything on his days off, but I'm like, What do you like, what do people's husbands do? Because like, at the time I was, and I was still with doTERRA a little bit of last 2022 I think like, February/March is when I kind of like pushed it away for a good type feeling. But like my like, soon to be a husband, who's my husband now he was so nice. Like, I I love like that you love something. But how much money are we actually making? There's so many other things that you enjoy that I could give you so much money for if you wanted to spend on anything else. And I think it's sad because at one point, they're like, you need to recruit your husband and put him in your downline.
Melissa Milner 23:53
Yeah, I mean, you know, what I was getting at really is some of some of the income claims are actually the husband's salary and not what the person's making with the MLM.
Robert FitzPatrick 24:05
The thing about MLM you're selling. As you said, you already said this vegan so well, you're not selling essential oils. Really, that's that's really not the main product, main main product is an income opportunity, a lifestyle almost a whole life. You know, it's almost a whole life they sell, it has to be presented. You know, when you sell a product, you can't disparage the product, you have to embellish the product, right if the product if you're selling a product, but if your product is income opportunity, the person selling almost is obligated to present themselves as successful as models of this of what you could have, even if they don't have it. And so, what you see in multilevel marketing is this enormous practice, a convention I mean, it is the norm to lie to lie about your income, your own income when you're recruiting. And so typically people will, you know, and they're told to present yourself as very successful dress well present... brag about your money, display your money, even if you don't have it, how do you do that? Well use the money you have from your savings, your spouse, your other job, your real job, and so on. And say that's all coming to you from multilevel marketing. I've seen it 10,000 times. And so spouse is often or you know, you take money from a spouse, this can be either with husband, men, women doesn't matter. The point is, you're getting money from somewhere else. But you claim it's coming from MLM in order to present yourself successfully. So this person who is telling you that they have this wonderful life, van life or whatever, it may not be true. You know, it may be true, but wouldn't be surprising if it were not actually funded that way. Okay, so tell us some more. I mean, so you one switching deadlines was one thing you did it, but you were in it for a while now. So you read it for a good while. So did you recruit? How did you recruit? And what was your experience?
Megan Rowton 26:20
You know, I tell people, I feel like people like myself, were never good at the multilevel marketing recruiting part of it, because I only ever, like, eventually, like, had my mom join just because, like, at one point, I was at home and my mom was like, oh, like, you know, like, that smells nice. I'll use it for myself type think and then like, eventually, like, I was like, I gotta get we ever like grandparents somehow, like involved and unfortunately, like, that's like, like how, like, people suck people in is like you promised people like, this is like really stuff like, X, Y and Z. People that I mentioned this to and I'm like, remember you like when you're selling something you're not just selling like that fake a lifestyle on, like, you have to keep up with traffic lifestyle, too. And I'm like, that's a lot of work for people who like, I'm like, personally, I'm like, I don't have time for that in my day. But I'm like when like when we would get on Zoom calls or coaching calls for an hour and a half just learning how to talk to people and learning how to sell to people, or like, make people feel bad for you. And I feel like how can you write like, how can you nicely make somebody feel bad for you over like, when you lost your job, you could have like, used that as a claim about like making people feel bad for you. And I'm like, to me, that's disturbing, because there are people out there who work very, very hard for their money, and do get laid off every single day. And I've seen it like in my husband's industry, and I've seen it in multiple like things of worlds. I'm like, No, I'm never going to sell that whole, like doTERRA made my life better. Funny story. I tell people, I think my husband saved me out of like, even more money because by the time I met him, it was at a point where I'm like, Well, I'm about to lose my job because I was at a store closing sale. So that can be very unfortunate. And a lot of people like oh, like it's the perfect time to grow your doTERRA business. And at the time, that's right, when I met him as a person, and you know, he was just not for it at all. And he was able to talk me out of it. Obviously, I love that.
Robert FitzPatrick 28:24
You will recruiting your your, your, your future spouse, you've tried to recruit him too.
Megan Rowton 28:30
Yeah. And it was like...
Robert FitzPatrick 28:31
and you still managed to get married to this...
Megan Rowton 28:35
I did. I tell people it sounds bad because I'm like, that's usually when like when you meet your spouse. But first person you're going to try to recruit out of that circle is usually the inlaws or somebody like that. And I'm like, we're not going to target people like that. And I will leave my father in law's name out of this completely, just like I said for privacy purposes. Unfortunately, he can't work due to medical conditions being and a lot of people like Oh, try to recruit somebody like that. Why that's so icky to me that I'm like, no like this, man can't even work a job.
Melissa Milner 29:14
So your gut when you were getting all this training you were going ech.
Megan Rowton 29:17
I guess it's a little gross, yeah.
Robert FitzPatrick 29:19
I wish we had a word for that. What is a good word for that? What we're talking about totally inappropriate. deceptive, manipulative.
Melissa Milner 29:31
Insidious,
Robert FitzPatrick 29:31
Insidious.
Megan Rowton 29:33
Right.
Robert FitzPatrick 29:34
It's still not strong enough.
Melissa Milner 29:35
No, it isn't.
Robert FitzPatrick 29:36
I've been writing about this for years and I still struggle with language to capture this of what you just described there. Megan, your father in laws disabled is able to work and their reply is perfect. Hit him up.
Megan Rowton 29:53
Yes. And it's it's weird to me because like you have to go after these people who are vulnerable. On a whole other level of like vulnerable, I tell people be them. Like there's people out there who are vulnerable, but we're still like aware of what's going on and like not on, but we're on but like kind of going on in their own senses. And members, people like me, I had clinical, very severe depression. And people prey on that, because they almost think that you have no hope for nothing else in your life. So you're going to give all your hope to your MLM. And unfortunately, I've seen it time after time after people join in. It's ridiculous when these girls I know this one girl, my second doTERRA group, I joined the second time, she was with the lady that I signed up under the second time. And she was mentioning like, oh, like, you know, like, I have anxiety, would you want to join, like this gratitude group I have? And I'm like, Yeah, sure, like sounds like a really good thing just to see like, what you're grateful for every day. And how many people in that group? Personally, I felt like got pitched doTERRA. And like, but here's the thing, nobody wants to hear about that when they're spilling out there, like deep, pure emotions about their families, for children, their moms or dads like, you don't want to hear about that when you're grieving. But like people are going to prey on it anyway, because you're vulnerable. And I want to tell people, like if you're going through a hard time, and you think this opportunity can make you money, like please like, get it out of your mind, because there's so much other things that you could spend money on. You can literally open a legit business with how much money I think you spend in an MLM.
Robert FitzPatrick 31:30
Yeah, what a concept, you could actually start a legitimate business.
Megan Rowton 31:33
Yes.
Robert FitzPatrick 31:35
So the gateway into all of this, though, was you're in school. You're a student, and a teacher approaches you?
Megan Rowton 31:42
Yes.
Robert FitzPatrick 31:43
Yeah, that was the gateway. That's, that's that's really what our podcast is because we recognize that as one of the were, for lack of a better term, one of the more insidious aspects of this recruiting is that it could insinuate itself right into the school system.
Megan Rowton 32:00
I think that's the crazy part. Because like, even like when I like I said, like, I didn't know anything about multilevel marketing, and it sounds stupid, because my mom would like buy Avon, like, occasionally here and there when I was a really young child, but like, that never went past anything like too crazy. Like it was more like, oh, the occasional lip gloss because you know, Becky's selling Avon again. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, whatever, I'm fine. I'll throw it on my face. Because you know, what, little girl doesn't buy dress up, I tell people but I never knew, like, what a pyramid scheme was. And I never knew what multilevel marketing was. And funny enough, I was in the library, like, and I'm just printing off all these papers, you know, for my project. And this one lady, who was I think she was partially like, like a librarian at our school. And she was like, Why do you sell doTERRA she like That's expensive. She you know, versus non multi level marketing oils that can save you a lot of money, sweetie, if that's what you're into. She's like, I know, you're kind of like looking into this stuff. But doTERRA is expensive. And you're so young, and I kind of just brushed it off at time. But now I'm like, wow, I should have really like heard that person out a little bit more.
Robert FitzPatrick 33:09
So your grandmother and a librarian warned you?
Megan Rowton 33:13
Yes. And I think third time, obviously is the charm since my husband was like, stop doing what you're doing and
Robert FitzPatrick 33:18
Oh yeah and then your spouse so you attracting some good people around you. You didn't have some? Some angels come around. That's, that's, yeah, that's not true for everybody.
Megan Rowton 33:29
Not being caught in like, it's weird to me because like, I know so many people who are in them too. Especially like I never got into Monat or Monat myself. I know that's a really popular one with girls my age being 26 years old same with like anything makeup related. And I know it sounds sad because like I don't think people are aware of this situation as much a lot of people have heard of now a day like speaking affiliate marketing is becoming a very big thing. And affiliate marketing and a multi level marketing thing are not the same program and a lot of you are writing it as an affiliate now and it's almost like you think you're some sort of brand partner.
Robert FitzPatrick 34:12
Some of them call them... yes some of the MLMs use that very term brand your brand partner you by any sign the contract, you're now a brand partner.
Melissa Milner 34:20
Yeah they'll say ambassador is another one. Social selling is what they're saying now.
Megan Rowton 34:26
I was scrolling for this one because like sometimes like I've like occasionally like LinkedIn just because like I said most of them I will sit down from home I make like a few dollars here and there when like affiliates but like it's nothing insane and it's because someone find your product and it's not they're not signing up for you and you're an affiliate or just simply buying through the link and you're making commission like a salesperson was because that's how sales are done. And but the weird one was for me, like I got this email, it looks super legit. And I start going through it and it was like which kit would you like to pick and I want people to know that if it involves a kit it, it's not a brand ambassador, it's not a affiliate, you don't have to buy your way into brand partners or affiliates. So I just want people to know that because that's some. I almost at 26 year old almost got fooled for.
Melissa Milner 35:15
Yeah, very good point.
Robert FitzPatrick 35:17
So we talked about how you got in, I'd like to hear a little more how you got out, you know, because you had some experience, you said, gobbling up your time.
Melissa Milner 35:27
And I'd also like to clarify, did you get out the first time and then rejoin with that new person?
Megan Rowton 35:34
I did not. So when I switched, like I said, with doTERRA, you have to wait six months before you place any sort of order, before you switch teams. And I think that's really interesting, because I feel like that's enough time for somebody to make up their mind. Really, if you think about it, I'm like, why are we giving people this much time if you want to scam people, because to me, I feel like that's, it's like, when you're on a 90 day policy, like, at work, you're kind of seeing how you like something for 90 days. And I'm like, the fact that you're giving people six months to like, decide, I'm like, that's insane. But like, I found this lady and she was super, like I said, super, super sweet to me. Second time around and move first person was like I said, super angelic as well. But like the second person was like, we have so much in common. And we met at a Oktoberfest and a lot of those type of events where you can be a vendor, you can sell your small business, you can bring like, you know, like crafts, and I guess for multilevel marketing things a small business that can register to but I tell people I met out, we kind of met, I wasn't 21 At the time, so I was like damn, but it's really soft, my parents are drinking beer, I can't even enjoy the fun of this, I'll just walk around and see what this place has. And that's kind of how we then got connected. I followed her on Instagram just because I was like, Oh, like this is like kind of cool. Like I already do. doTERRA. And then she like was super, like, into my page started giving me like lots of love. And she you know, you'd be a really good, beautiful person for like my front line, because you just have a really good story. You're a really smart girl. And I switched.
Megan Rowton 37:11
And I was like, this is like, awesome. I have all these friends who I long story short, no longer talk to. And I think that's another thing people don't talk about enough is the difficultness of relationships when you get out of multilevel marketing, but like when I was in, like I switched right to her, and like, over the course of six months, she's like, I don't want you to lose your discount, Venmo me the money you want for the products you want. And just tell me what you want. And I'll throw it on my order. Not a big deal. And I was like, okay, like whatever. Like, I guess friends do things for friends, because I've ordered my friends and stuff before, like, why would that be any different, but like, after, like, just nightly calls and just wanting to like almost, I moved from Ohio to Michigan, I tell people I almost wanted to start something new for myself. So like when I got up here, me and my boyfriend, which is now my husband. We both caught COVID in 2021 right before Thanksgiving in November. And neither of us got any money from like the state. It was a really just in I was like, You know what I can sell like doTERRA and that's when I really started like trying to like push that idea and he was like No, don't do it. And like I'm really thankful for that just because like you know all these girls were telling me when I'm all through like I was all for a month we both were like you can order a doTERRA order you can make so much commission if you recruit this many people in this month, you can make this much money Megan like you don't even have to go back to work if you didn't want to have a time.
Megan Rowton 38:44
And it all sounded so so nicely until like I would like looking at my credit card statements. And me and my like fiance looked to him. I was like, I need to stop this. And he was like, yeah, like this is something that you enjoy, but I promise you that you can buy oils a lot cheaper this and enjoy it and I'm like, but I'm going to disappoint everybody on my team and I left my doTERRA team right before my wedding. So like I kind of did did it have a time where I knew my phone was going to be off for a week on my honeymoon. So I'm like awesome if these people are blowing my phone up I'm the only time in my life like you guys can't get to me type thing. But it was just one of those things I went and I messaged my downline she was like more like I'm really upset that you're like doing this but like best wishes. I think they all do like that nice like goodbye type thing because if you get mad people definitely won't stay with you. But like we haven't reached out any we haven't talked I haven't talked to any of the girls on the team since I've quit in September. It's weird. You you get promised these fake friendships. And that kind of goes more into like what I was saying like with fake friendships and MLMs you meet all these people and they love you and they praise you while you're in it. But when you don't no longer do it, you're not part of their good girl or like whatever in girl group you want to call it.
Robert FitzPatrick 40:10
It is exactly a fake friendship. It is the very definition is the very definition of a fake friendship.
Melissa Milner 40:17
Yeah, and of course, the love bombing in the beginning and the...yeah.
Megan Rowton 40:21
You know, people, especially for people who are in a wellness and MLM, especially when people start spilling their guts talking about things such as PTSD, anxiety, depression, things that are very deep and like dark to people, I would say. People use that as a, hey, I have a product for you that might work. And it's like, no. Stop. It's weird to me, because like, in high school, you're like I said, You're so young. And like I was in high school too. But like, I was 18, in the fact that like, some of these, like, I'm the only time I've ever really heard about it. And then like high school was one of the girls kind of talk about in high school. And then like, it's never like, anything until after I knew somebody who was kind of preached Monat at a very young age. And obviously, you have to be 18 to join these companies. Because you're literally stealing from people. You're not only your time, but like so much money. But I wish it was just something that was a little bit more educated in a public setting, because I think there's a lot of hardships I hear about people who get divorced because they can't stop spending on their MLMs. And that's a serious issue that like you're preyed upon and these people who pitch do like, and then lmm and no offense, like I said, people and divorced and it's just, I would hate for that to happen over something that you could so easily just be like, you know, that doesn't sound legit at all. To me, I think I'm good.
Melissa Milner 41:45
Did anybody in your upline, for instance, I say to you, some people are going to say, is it a pyramid scheme? You tell them that it's not a pyramid scheme? Or if you had, did they give you that type of training?
Megan Rowton 41:58
More like, it's like, hey, people are going to tell you this is scam. It's not a scam. And the people who do they don't really love you that much. Like what? That's manipulation to like 100 the number that I would say because...
Melissa Milner 42:13
Wow.
Megan Rowton 42:14
It's like, I'm or the better one of like, if you don't sign up your friends, are they really your friends to begin with?
Melissa Milner 42:21
So there was no anti MLM podcast that you listened to, or...
Megan Rowton 42:25
It sounds stupid. I never did when I was in it. And I think that was just more of my like, I would like, of course, like when you're scrolling through YouTube, or like Facebook, sometimes like you see the occasional like, post pop up, but like, it doesn't mean you're going to click on it and watch it. It seemed like your multilevel marketing stuff. Not everyone's going to click on it and watch it. But I tell people like I would like occasionally like see, like stuff and I'd be like okay, like that's interesting that people feel this way. I was never ever typed to get really heated up. I'm not really a heated up type of person. It takes a lot for me to get very like wired. But eventually at one point, I was just kind of like once I did get out of doTERRA I was looking up like videos of doTERRA on YouTube and this girl named Hannah Alonso I think it's pronounced she popped up. And she's an anti MLM creator. And she had a lot of good content. And that's where I kind of took it from there. And now I'm like, wow, I'm really happy I found this person because like I've at one point like I tell people when you quit in MLM most people there is a little bit of a thought of, did I make the right decision or not? Because you feel almost a guilt over your shoulders when you quit versus and it's weird, because I never thought I would feel guilty. But I, I did. And it's like, almost like you miss these. Like I said, fake friendships that are built and like all those like fake promises. That's what you miss. But it's not the recruiting. It's not the staying up until like, X amount of hours every night to stay on a Zoom call. That's not what you miss. It's a community of people is what you miss.
Robert FitzPatrick 43:57
So what would you suggest maybe a student should know? Or how would they know the truth about this? If you've not, you're not in it, you haven't been ensnared? You've heard about it. Maybe somebody you know, is in it? You want to find out your young person, you're in school? Let's say you're 18 or over, or even younger, what would they go to? Which is what would you suggest they do?
Megan Rowton 44:27
I feel like it sounds really like, like stupid to some people. But I'm like one of those people. I type in anti MLM if you're suffering through it on YouTube. A lot of young people love YouTube. I think a lot of people in general like YouTube and there's so much good content and there's so many videos that are anti MLM and it's sometimes specific. So like, let's say you get pitched Monat or doTERRA. You can look up specific videos on their compensation plans and everything is right there in black and white writing. And it literally will tell you 0.001% of people will make this much money. And that's a very, very small amount of people thinking and not even everybody in the world is in a multilevel marketing company. So when you really have that 0.001% How many actual people is that? Because there's only so many people in that company to who have joined. Be very careful, read up on it, ask questions to other people who haven't ever tried to push anything down your I know, that might sound stupid, but like, I feel like if someone hasn't been pitched, yet, usually they're not going to until someone else possibly tries to pitch them by tell people I've listened to people who have like been in it listened to people who've even lost money at it, because it was over people who tried to do something different, tried to do something bigger and better, almost, I guess you could say bigger and better, quote, unquote, I'll put them quotes. But just listen to the people who've actually been through this themselves because of the people who've been through it. And the people who want to talk about it and have the time of day to mention like what it did to their life aren't the people who are just going to fluff it and make it look pretty, like we were the people who are genuinely trying to save people out of it. And that is my advice to any young person, just because I feel like, there isn't a lot of advice to young people out there when it comes to these companies. And it saddens me because I'm like, wow, like I was almost pitched a multilevel marketing company almost 10 years ago, and I tell people, I'm like, That's wild to think that I'm like, I'm only 28 years old. And while most people are still peeking in multilevel marketing, or late 20s, early 30s, I'm already done with that. Because I tell people you need to know the harm of doing this. Before you get in. I can tell people not to join it. I can tell people like all these horrible things. But like, that's my advice. So I tell people, like if you want to still go do that and spend your money. I've told you what I need to tell you at this point.
Melissa Milner 46:57
Looking back, do you realize oh, I was being groomed, then when they put that thing in your water? Were they like trying to kind of see if you would be willing to try it? Were they grooming you in order to then feel comfortable to recruit you?
Megan Rowton 47:13
I feel like yes in a way because I feel like there was a constant oh smell this, try this, taste this type thing. And I feel like the first thing I ever did was I ever tasted an oil and I never heard of that until doTERRA. I wish people in that sense would kind of wake up from like what you're doing. Because I'm like, you are doing so much more harm than good believe me. I'm like when you are like preying on people and just getting them to smell an oil every single day when they walk into your that is preying on somebody. Or like when this person myself invite I actually genuinely like cared enough about this person to like, invite this person in like my private life like my wedding. And like just still had like no desire to come on. Like, because it's a fake relationship. And I'm like, that's another thing like these people care about you so much. Or I think the weirdest grossest thing about the whole thing is like, I'm pretty like, aware, like, I don't share anything like multilevel marketing, like on my Facebook at all, like anything social. But the person that originally sold me doTERRA so person number one has still tried to pitch me over companies since. And I'm like, It's been eight...
Robert FitzPatrick 48:19
Other companies.
Robert FitzPatrick 48:20
Yes.
Megan Rowton 48:20
And I'm like, I...
Robert FitzPatrick 48:21
So they left doTERRA and they're now on others.
Megan Rowton 48:24
That I'm not sure because they still do share doTERRA I know most companies have that rule of you have to either quit...
Robert FitzPatrick 48:30
You can be in multiple and not not legitimately you can do it stealthily. Maybe. But if they find out. Yeah, yeah, it's a hop. But the system is based on exclusivity. Capturing you and not allowing you if you know, they call you independent, but you can't sell anything but their MLM. And it extends to all MLMs doesn't matter. You might understand some accompany saying you can't sell a competitive essential oil. But what they'll say is you can't sell any other MLM even if it's selling life insurance.
Melissa Milner 49:10
It's funny because I personally know someone who is selling LuLaRoe, who's also was also on the side, selling the nails, whatever that was called Color Street. And now she's on to another one. But she's still selling LuLaRoe. It's like, he's supposed to be doing that?
Robert FitzPatrick 49:28
No. She's She's scamming the road to if that's what's happening.
Megan Rowton 49:34
Yeah.
Robert FitzPatrick 49:34
So well, you're on the side of the resource now, Megan. You're the one now that giving the information that you said was not really available to you at the time and, and as you said in the last 10 years, it has been an explosion of good, reliable information out there about MLM books, documentaries, podcasts, blogs, websites, there's a lot out there now. So you're, you know, you've you're doing a great thing really, I mean, most people get out and they vanish. You're actually speaking up and it takes a lot of courage to do that.
Megan Rowton 50:17
It does and I tell people like it's like, intimidating when you go to Facebook because a lot of people that's another thing you'll see in our Facebook bios or Instagram bios, like how, like, there a silver or like, whatever ranks are called, like, what up like, whatever company you're a part of, and or it's like, I guess Arbonne, like I was never I've been pitched Arbonne, but I never really looked looked into our bond. I know, I think I'm pretty sure we're another wellness company. And it's just it was really, really like, bizarre to me. Like, I was like, like, the one like step is like, regional manager, and I'm like, but you're not a regional manager at all.
Robert FitzPatrick 50:55
It's like becoming Vice President from the first is your first job.
Melissa Milner 50:59
Trying to make it sound real official? Yeah.
Megan Rowton 51:02
Oh, yeah.
Robert FitzPatrick 51:03
The other piece of information that I think, you know, many people don't have, they may, as you have discovered, through direct experience, long, painful experience, that it's scam. But most people will conclude, well, okay, that one was a scam. And then somebody will say, Well, of course, that you didn't make money in that one. Because that one's no good. But we have a good one, we have a good MLM. But in fact, if you just kind of take away the superficial trappings around the edges, they're all exactly the same, they have exactly the same compensation plan, the same recruiting scheme, the same consequences too 0.01% make some money 99.9% make no money. So and that's locked in. And that's true for all of them. I've looked at 400 MLMs. over my time, and I've done very in depth research, I've been in 37 court cases, as a consultant. So I've had a chance to really look at these things in depth. And they are all exactly. I mean, essentially, like essential oils essential, meaning that you have to have it, and it's the essence, or the essence of MLM they're all essentially the same. So that's part of the the, you know, false recruiting is to tell you, this one's different.
Melissa Milner 52:42
Yeah. So Megan, I hope you speak up some more, I hope you have a blog or your own podcast, or I think it's really inspiring, it's really inspiring to hear how far you've come. You know, if there are young people listening right now, I hope that if they've learned anything, it's if your parents or grandparents or the librarian, give you some advice. Maybe that's when you say, Oh, I guess I should look into this a little bit.
Robert FitzPatrick 53:15
These stories are just starting to get me in a place where I don't, I don't know what to say anymore. Because it's not about losing money. You know, people can afford to lose a lot of money actually, and still recover. But time, and then relationships, and the waste of time and the delusion that they were in. And, and and then realizing discovering that all these people who you were interacting with, were really abusing you, manipulating. It's like being in some kind of terrible, I don't... Again, the only thing that comes up is, is a cult. The only other thing I can think of is people that you know, come out of a terribly abusive, personal relationship, and have to recover from that saying you're plagued with the question, Why was I in that? Why did I let it go on? How did I get into this? And why me and so on? And then what kind of a person would do that and so on. And that's and that's going on on an industrial scale. You know, it's just and they're teaching people to do this, find the vulnerable spot, find what it is, unhappy family, need income, whatever it is, this will solve your problem, you know, so everything is a manipulation. Yeah.
Melissa Milner 54:42
Well, this was amazing.
Megan Rowton 54:44
Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it.
Melissa Milner 54:47
Please remember to check us out on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, @ponzinomics101. And check out our website. www.ponzinomics101.com We hope you spread the word about this podcast because the best defense is awareness. Thanks for listening.